Discussion:
PING Frank McCoy
(too old to reply)
Frank McCoy
2004-10-11 14:43:34 UTC
Permalink
I'm not set up for security. Wonder if you would like to add the following
poem to a debate elsewhere about the ACLU.
If you wish somewhere else, perhaps my froup:
alt.fan.frank.mccoy
(Though this very group often handles such debates.)

Also not quite sure why you'd need "security" to discuss
Bill-of-Rights issues. The point being that the unpopular people need
to be protected from unfair or illegal prosecution, or eventually WE
become the unpopular people being persecuted. (Yes, the
distinction/smearing between prosecution and persecution is
deliberate.)

I have more things to say than what I already have ... As, I presume,
do you.

Cross-posted to alt.fan.frank.mccoy
Followups set to alt.fan.frank.mccoy
Anybody else wishing to follow is welcome.
--
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Shagrat
2004-10-11 18:59:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank McCoy
Also not quite sure why you'd need "security" to discuss
Bill-of-Rights issues. The point being that the unpopular people need
to be protected from unfair or illegal prosecution, or eventually WE
become the unpopular people being persecuted. (Yes, the
distinction/smearing between prosecution and persecution is
deliberate.)
Thanks for replying, Frank.

I read the thread featuring the ACLU and NAMBLA in asgl. In Canada we have
no First Amendment (is that the right one? Freedom of speech?). Our child
pornography laws specifically DO include written material - *you* would be
arrested here. It is not unlikely that I will get a tap at the door even
from this posting. But what is happening is just as bad as what happened
in Germany in the thirties and I felt I *must* speak out, no matter how
timidly.

My personal tastes are much like yours. I like looking at girls and women
from late childhood to early middle age, adore holding my seven year old
niece, and wouldn't dream of harming her. I felt the same way with my
older nieces, kept my hands off them, and was rewarded a week ago when
number two niece allowed me to hold her two day old son (the first of his
generation). I am trusted and loved.

The youngest girl ever to share my bed (many, many years ago - I barely
even remember her face) was two years *above* the age of consent and had a
thirty-one year old boyfriend. The woman who brought the most pleasure
into my life, and the one I was engaged to marry until she came to her
senses, was twenty-five when we met.

Probably the biggest difference between you and me is that I dislike older
women. They don't smell right to me. Pheromones are missing. I like
talking to them, like walking with them, like being seen with them. I just
don't like bedding them.

In any case, I felt that the poem was apropos for ACLU. I haven't checked
asgl yet, but hope you chose to use it.
--
Shagrat

May the lesser gods adore you and the great ones never know you exist.
Frank McCoy
2004-10-12 00:05:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shagrat
Post by Frank McCoy
Also not quite sure why you'd need "security" to discuss
Bill-of-Rights issues. The point being that the unpopular people need
to be protected from unfair or illegal prosecution, or eventually WE
become the unpopular people being persecuted. (Yes, the
distinction/smearing between prosecution and persecution is
deliberate.)
Thanks for replying, Frank.
I read the thread featuring the ACLU and NAMBLA in asgl. In Canada we have
no First Amendment (is that the right one? Freedom of speech?).
That's the one.
Also the one that allows freedom of the Press and religion too.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Post by Shagrat
Our child
pornography laws specifically DO include written material - *you* would be
arrested here.
THAT I know. No, NOT for writing the stories I do (That sort of thing
HAS been thrown out by Canadian courts.), but for distributing them
over the net. In Canadian Law, that's a no-no.
Post by Shagrat
It is not unlikely that I will get a tap at the door even
from this posting.
Now THAT I doubt indeed.
Perhaps maybe, if you were discussing some of my stories in
particular, like the child-having-sex ones.

Other stories (Like "Taking the Blame") are too-obviously political
propaganda ... and the cops would keep hands-off. Even up there, they
allow opposing viewpoints to be expressed about political issues ...
So far anyway.

And (of course) my SF or even adult-sex stories would be perfectly
fine ... Though somebody *might* look to see if you were also looking
over my more controversial stories as well.
Post by Shagrat
But what is happening is just as bad as what happened
in Germany in the thirties and I felt I *must* speak out, no matter how
timidly.
One reason I post.
Back when I first started posting my very first story, "Her Father's
Daughter", I really *expected* the police to come knocking at my door
and arresting me for posting "illegal stories". At the time, and in
the next year or so I decided to take the bit in my teeth, and be
ready to STAND UP for freedom of speech, and freedom of the Press
(BOTH in my mind being affected in a story) and be willing to FIGHT
for the right to post these very stories.

With that in mind, I've taken certain precautions over the years.

A. No *other* porn on my computer ... or even other controversial
material other than TEXT. I simply *cannot* allow myself to be shut
down and silenced by some side-issue, where a judge says I cannot post
(or something like that) as part of my sentence or parole.

B. ALL of my stories have points to make. Some are thinly disguised
propaganda that it isn't AGE or WHO you make love to that matters,
it's HOW and WHY you have sex, and if you LOVE the person, instead of
just being interested in pleasuring yourself. Not ALL of those, even
with this message, are all shown from he positive angle. SOME make
the point by showing just how bad things can be in comparison.

Now WHY make each story a piece of propaganda, or at least have
something to say? Because, in ruling both for and against various
porn laws, the US Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that art or
things with social or other important messages (Can't for the life of
me remember the actual wording), then they're protected under the
Constitution and cannot be banned. So, I also do my best to make each
a work of art as well. Maybe not what those who hate my message would
consider "art", but well-crafted and made to give a message. Being
propaganda give my stories further protection in that they fall under
that part of the First Amendment guaranteeing the right, "to petition
the Government for a redress of grievances." Propaganda and telling
YOUR side of a story, or trying to get other people to agree with you
to change what you see as unfair laws, IS trying to get the government
to "redress grievances". That my method of trying to sway people is
by telling STORIES showing the positive side of what I see as good,
has a *long* history, going back to Christ and his parables, Aesop and
his tales, and long millennia before either one was born. To not
allow me to tell my stories showing *my* side of the debate, is to
forbid one of the most effective methods of communication available in
both speech and press. Swift did it with his tales of "Gulliver's
Travels". Why should I not be allowed to do the same?

That the message is *hated* by many doesn't detract from the fact that
it IS a message. Art doesn't have to be popular to be art either.

Actually, many people particularly HATE my stories, simply *because*
they are so convincing. Paradoxically, that makes them both more of a
target, and yet all the more protected under the First Amendment.

At one time, about 8 years ago or a little before, when things looked
darkest, I decided that I was going to stand up for the First
Amendment, be willing to face ugly challenges in Court, be willing to
lose my present life (which was MUCH richer back then, with a job that
I loved and that paid enormously better than any I can get today),
lose my family, my friends, my wife and lover, my child, and even my
life itself in defense of the ideal.

For a time, I really *did* expect at any hour of the day or night to
hear the crashing as they bashed in my door, confisticated my computer
and all my files, and held me incommunicado while they tried to invent
crimes for me to have committed ... even planting "child porn" on my
computer and saying I had been downloading and distributing that too.

For months I kept scrupulous records, continuous daily image-files of
my directories and FAT tables, so I could counter such prevarications
and SHOW that any such had been planted, not put there by me. (Now I
only do that every few months.)

Quite a few times I *did* find people I *suspect* to be Law
Enforcement people sending me back-doors and similar programs that
would have allowed them to poke around on my computer, erase disks,
and (more importantly, to me) easily plant illegal material on my
hard-drives. Whether they WOULD have done so, or just nosed around in
my private files, I have no idea. In any case, I squelched each
attempt. None of my anti-virus software has ever so much as hiccuped;
as I *know* how to keep such malicious material off my computer ... By
*never* opening or running ANY software I don't know the source of and
the (tested) cleanness of.

Like I said, I fully EXPECTED the Gestapo (OK, the FBI, Customs, or
Local Police) to at least knock on my door, grab files off my computer
(or borrow the computer itself) or (at the very LEAST) ask me pointed
questions about people I "know" ... People who browsed and commented
in the Newsgroup abpep-t.

Only ... LEA probably knows far more about that group than I do, even
though I've got a very complete record of most of the purely TEXT
messages in that group for several years.

With me being a "Faculty Member" of PU ... When the big "bust" went
down (Actually only three such got arrested out of more than 25) I
really REALLY expected a knock on the door for months. It never came.

It seems I was wrong in my suspicions. Perhaps LEA here in the USA
*is* more concerned with following the Constitution than harassing
some geek with unpopular ideas. Perhaps.

With George W. Bush in office, and if he remains there, I fully expect
that to change. Especially when he gets to nominate several new
justices to the Supreme Court. ;-{
Post by Shagrat
My personal tastes are much like yours. I like looking at girls and women
from late childhood to early middle age, adore holding my seven year old
niece, and wouldn't dream of harming her. I felt the same way with my
Well ... While I find children sexy, I don't find them all that
*arousing*. In the presence of children, about the last thing I'd
think of is sex. In the past several years, a few times I'd think of
one of my stories, look around, see a child, and wonder about my
reaction with THAT child in the story. Surprisingly, the reaction is
more annoyance or distraction or even worry for the child than
arousal.

Of course, MY fantasy isn't to be a horny old man raping a child ...
or even being seduced by one. My fantasy is to BE a young child being
encouraged and *allowed* to have all the sex (s)he wants. An
impossibility, of course. We not only cannot go back to being young,
but we cannot easily change sexes ... and those who do, find it less
than completely satisfactory. With my bent, not being able to have
children would make it *completely* unsatisfactory.

I love children. Wish I could have had 4 or 5 ... or even 6, instead
of only one. Ah well ... When you have perfection ....
;-}
Post by Shagrat
older nieces, kept my hands off them, and was rewarded a week ago when
number two niece allowed me to hold her two day old son (the first of his
generation). I am trusted and loved.
I *love* to hold babies. These days I get so little chance to do so.
;-{
Post by Shagrat
The youngest girl ever to share my bed (many, many years ago - I barely
even remember her face) was two years *above* the age of consent and had a
thirty-one year old boyfriend. The woman who brought the most pleasure
into my life, and the one I was engaged to marry until she came to her
senses, was twenty-five when we met.
Heh. My wife of 30 years now (35 together) is older than I am.
She doesn't allow me to tell how MUCH older. ;-}
Post by Shagrat
Probably the biggest difference between you and me is that I dislike older
women. They don't smell right to me. Pheromones are missing. I like
talking to them, like walking with them, like being seen with them. I just
don't like bedding them.
I love older women.
I love younger women.
I love little girls.
I love the entire opposite sex.
My preferred sex-partner?
1. My wife, at any time.
2. A young woman, "old enough to know better, but young enough to
want to do it anyway." Somebody who likes sex for the sheer joy of
it, and willing to share that joy with me.
Post by Shagrat
In any case, I felt that the poem was apropos for ACLU. I haven't checked
asgl yet, but hope you chose to use it.
Have you ever read CR's poem "When Society Has Its Way"?
If not, and you're interested, I'll post another copy here.
--
_____
/ ' / ™
,-/-, __ __. ____ /_
(_/ / (_(_/|_/ / <_/ <_
Shagrat
2004-10-12 01:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank McCoy
Other stories (Like "Taking the Blame") are too-obviously political
propaganda ... and the cops would keep hands-off. Even up there, they
allow opposing viewpoints to be expressed about political issues ...
So far anyway.
For the last few years, we've probably been freer than you. Canada always
(at least as far back as I can remember) has been politically very free.
Communism, for example, was never outlawed here. We still have two or
three Communist/Marxist/Trotskyest parties that could hold their
collective (no pun intended) meetings in a phone booth. I always vote
Green.
Post by Frank McCoy
That the message is *hated* by many doesn't detract from the fact that
it IS a message. Art doesn't have to be popular to be art either.
"Popular art". Is that an oxymoron?
Post by Frank McCoy
Like I said, I fully EXPECTED the Gestapo (OK, the FBI, Customs, or
Local Police) to at least knock on my door, grab files off my computer
(or borrow the computer itself) ....
I would have been in terrible trouble if the local police, RCMP, OPP, or
CSIS (why, I wouldn't know, I know only one phrase of Arabic) had
confiscated my computer any time before last Friday. Nothing to do with
porn or politics -- I've been out of work for so long my Unemployment
Insurance ran out several months ago. Most good jobs around here are
published on a website, NOT in the newspaper.

So, every day I look up the Job Bank (its a Canada only thing - sorry,
Frank. Does Workopolis work in Minnesnowta?), enter my field in the [box],
select the local area, check [last 48 hours only], and read 10 or 20 or 30
entries. Then choose the couple that apply to me, bring up Out-of-Luck
Depressed (I use X-News for newsgroups, OE for email only - best to keep
them separated), copy the email address and job title, write a cover
letter, add my resume, and send. Some times I drop them off in person.
Occasionally I get an interview.

I'll be doing a lot less posting now. Start work tomorrow afternoon at
Rockwell Allen-Bradley. They make electronic controls, PLCs, and such.
Reason I'm not working today is Canadian Thanksgiving. I won't be in any
great position, just a starter job assembling electronics, but the pay is
pretty good (C$15.88, about $12.50 US). Enough for an old bachelor.
Post by Frank McCoy
With George W. Bush in office, and if he remains there, I fully expect
that to change. Especially when he gets to nominate several new
justices to the Supreme Court. ;-{
Me too! I am absolutely *certain* he will win. Nothing could be more
destructive to your country or to the world in general.
Post by Frank McCoy
Post by Shagrat
My personal tastes are much like yours. I like looking at girls and
women from late childhood to early middle age, adore holding my seven
year old niece, and wouldn't dream of harming her. I felt the same way
with my
Well ... While I find children sexy, I don't find them all that
*arousing*.
Guess I didn't write that too well. When I'm on the computer, or lying
awake at night, a pretty child seems awfully tempting. Then I see kids in
real life -- *whatever* was I thinking?! But I do love holding my niece,
same as I loved holding her two older brothers before they got too big.
And my five other nieces and nephews. Never found the nephews pretty,
though. :-p

I'm now teaching the oldest girl to ride my motorcycle. <big grin!>
Post by Frank McCoy
Have you ever read CR's poem "When Society Has Its Way"?
If not, and you're interested, I'll post another copy here.
Tried to Google for it. No luck.
Please post.
--
Shagrat

May the lesser gods adore you and the great ones never know you exist.
Frank McCoy
2004-10-12 02:28:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shagrat
Post by Frank McCoy
Other stories (Like "Taking the Blame") are too-obviously political
propaganda ... and the cops would keep hands-off. Even up there, they
allow opposing viewpoints to be expressed about political issues ...
So far anyway.
For the last few years, we've probably been freer than you. Canada always
(at least as far back as I can remember) has been politically very free.
Communism, for example, was never outlawed here. We still have two or
three Communist/Marxist/Trotskyest parties that could hold their
collective (no pun intended) meetings in a phone booth. I always vote
Green.
Um ... I *hate* to prick your bubble, but:
Communism was *NEVER* outlawed here!
Even during the deepest days of the "Cold War", as long as I can
remember (and I'm sure they still do) Gus Hall ran for President of
the USA on the Communist ticket. I hear he died a couple of years
ago, from age-induced troubles, and wonder who they'll run on their
ticket now?
Post by Shagrat
Post by Frank McCoy
That the message is *hated* by many doesn't detract from the fact that
it IS a message. Art doesn't have to be popular to be art either.
"Popular art". Is that an oxymoron?
No. "Popular art" is the art you and I buy ... The cheap velvet
paintings of ships, the old mill on a glass background, the
Wolf-in-winter scene. Or, in books, probably the trash "romance"
novels that many women read by the gross each week.
Post by Shagrat
Post by Frank McCoy
Like I said, I fully EXPECTED the Gestapo (OK, the FBI, Customs, or
Local Police) to at least knock on my door, grab files off my computer
(or borrow the computer itself) ....
I would have been in terrible trouble if the local police, RCMP, OPP, or
CSIS (why, I wouldn't know, I know only one phrase of Arabic) had
confiscated my computer any time before last Friday. Nothing to do with
porn or politics -- I've been out of work for so long my Unemployment
Insurance ran out several months ago. Most good jobs around here are
published on a website, NOT in the newspaper.
At that time, I would have been *seriously* inconvenienced; as more
than half of what I did was on my computer.
Post by Shagrat
So, every day I look up the Job Bank (its a Canada only thing - sorry,
Frank. Does Workopolis work in Minnesnowta?), enter my field in the [box],
select the local area, check [last 48 hours only], and read 10 or 20 or 30
entries. Then choose the couple that apply to me, bring up Out-of-Luck
Depressed (I use X-News for newsgroups, OE for email only - best to keep
them separated), copy the email address and job title, write a cover
letter, add my resume, and send. Some times I drop them off in person.
Occasionally I get an interview.
I finally gave up on that.
Around here, I keep my name active in about four "temp" job suppliers,
and keep the phone alive so any of them can call me. Every once in a
while one of them does.
Post by Shagrat
I'll be doing a lot less posting now. Start work tomorrow afternoon at
Rockwell Allen-Bradley. They make electronic controls, PLCs, and such.
Reason I'm not working today is Canadian Thanksgiving. I won't be in any
great position, just a starter job assembling electronics, but the pay is
pretty good (C$15.88, about $12.50 US). Enough for an old bachelor.
Better than what I'm hoping for.
A local company interviewed me Friday about a warehouse job.
On the positive side, it seemed to go well.
On the negative side, I got the standard, "We'll call you if we
decide," when I left. And the pay is lower than yours; and the drive
is *right* at my limit of distance to drive.

Nobody called today. I'm still hoping though.
Post by Shagrat
Post by Frank McCoy
With George W. Bush in office, and if he remains there, I fully expect
that to change. Especially when he gets to nominate several new
justices to the Supreme Court. ;-{
Me too! I am absolutely *certain* he will win. Nothing could be more
destructive to your country or to the world in general.
Post by Frank McCoy
Post by Shagrat
My personal tastes are much like yours. I like looking at girls and
women from late childhood to early middle age, adore holding my seven
year old niece, and wouldn't dream of harming her. I felt the same way
with my
Well ... While I find children sexy, I don't find them all that
*arousing*.
Guess I didn't write that too well. When I'm on the computer, or lying
awake at night, a pretty child seems awfully tempting. Then I see kids in
real life -- *whatever* was I thinking?! But I do love holding my niece,
same as I loved holding her two older brothers before they got too big.
And my five other nieces and nephews. Never found the nephews pretty,
though. :-p
I'm now teaching the oldest girl to ride my motorcycle. <big grin!>
Post by Frank McCoy
Have you ever read CR's poem "When Society Has Its Way"?
If not, and you're interested, I'll post another copy here.
Tried to Google for it. No luck.
Please post.
It *used* to be on my personal website.
Right now I don't HAVE a personal website any more; just a stories
one. Maybe I'll sneak a copy on there.

He wouldn't let me correct the grammar and spelling mistakes; but he
gave me free permission to post it as-is:




Ignorance

(When Society Has It's way)

By Me (CR)

I just picked up the papers and read the words inside,
Apparently they're after me and I think that I should hide,
Just yesterday my life was full and everything just dandy,
But now I read that I am scum because I came in handy.

The human race will carry on as long as it has hate,
I followed blindly on this path, until the present date,
But now it's me they want to bust, and throw away the key,
Or drag me screaming from my house to hang upon a tree.

What did I do, that yesterday was different to this morn?
People liked me yesterday, now hatred has been born.
I've waved the flag to presidents, prime ministers and kings,
I jumped on all the bandwagons to prove that I fit in.

But now I lay my banner down, and shout my wrath no more,
Society has turned on me, I do not know what for.
Suddenly my life is nought, and friends have turned their back,
What have I done? Is this my time? Why do they attack?

Is it my religion, or my background, or my skin?
My sexual persuasion? Why the hell don't I fit in?
I was there during the protests, when we tried to quash the blacks,
I beat down gays and pedophiles, but now I watch my back.

In Germany, in '38 I spit upon the Jews,
I did my bit for leadership, now why am I to lose?
The life I built, through history, that made me feel this way,
Has turned me out and told my friends that I'll be put away?

I've done no wrong, I'm only me, why are they so blind?
To drag me from my homestead and treat me so unkind.
My family has been disgraced, and of it I have learnt,
That history is cyclic and compassion must be burnt.

I have no choice, I must fight on, the war on me still reigns,
As society believes it's lies and facts go down it's drains,
From deep withing this holocaust a voice will start to ring,
Defy them with your spoken word, and don't believe a thing.

So from this dark and dusty mess, I rise above the fire,
Taking flak from here and there and drawing on their ire.
My comrades walk beside me, holding hands and chanting truth,
Until the message is recieving in the ears of mankinds youth.

From near and far the protests rise, they hate us even more,
THey arrested one for speaking out, there'll be more I am sure.
THe water cannons taking aim, upon a peaceful march,
And cordon off our meeting place, a green and sunny park.

We stand in arms, uprising, as the powers push us down.
THey didn't want this protest in their quiet little town.
They never asked for trouble in this corner of the world,
But they never asked why I am bad, they just believed the word.

And suddenly I hear a voice from deep within the crowd,
A murmur, then a hum until its getting very loud.
'Theres loads of them, they can't be wrong, just look at all their
pride',
And they redirect their hatred that they'd all built up inside.

So now I walk up proudly, to accept a prize of peace,
And those who spat upon my face will rise up to their feet,
To accept me back into their fold and let me live my life,
And apologise far all the hate, the killing and the strife.

Now once again, I'm free to walk amongst the worlds free men,
Happy in my lifetime that I won't be crushed again.
So I stand beside my fellow man, and use the past to learn,
To stand up tall, and follow all, as another life we burn.

Crusader Raider. ©®

Head of Debate Class. Pedo U.
Editor of the P.U.Picayune.
Da Big Temporary Poot. First Church Of Laika.
Member: Free The Beer Movement
ILWT
SWMBA
--
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/ ' / ™
,-/-, __ __. ____ /_
(_/ / (_(_/|_/ / <_/ <_
Shagrat
2004-10-12 06:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank McCoy
Communism was *NEVER* outlawed here!
Oh. What with McCarthy and all, I had entirely the wrong impression. Not
the first time I've completely screwed up simple facts. Thanks for
correcting me.
Post by Frank McCoy
I finally gave up on that.
Around here, I keep my name active in about four "temp" job suppliers,
and keep the phone alive so any of them can call me. Every once in a
while one of them does.
I got this job through a temp. Manpower had called me up a couple of weeks
ago, asking if I would take a two day job at $10.00. I said yes to help
them out of a jam. After the first night, I phoned Manpower and asked how
long they had promised the company I would go in -- I would return for
another night if promised but *never* send me there again.

The woman at Manpower was so impressed that I would return to something so
far beneath me that she kept me at the top of the list for something up my
alley.
Post by Frank McCoy
Nobody called today. I'm still hoping though.
If it's like my last one, hope not. I know exactly how you feel; aside
from the mortgage I'm now $32,000 in debt.
Post by Frank McCoy
Now once again, I'm free to walk amongst the worlds free men,
Happy in my lifetime that I won't be crushed again.
So I stand beside my fellow man, and use the past to learn,
To stand up tall, and follow all, as another life we burn.
I'm feeling awfully slow right now, going to bed in a moment. Is the
"hero" of this poem a Nazi?
--
Shagrat

May the lesser gods adore you and the great ones never know you exist.
Frank McCoy
2004-10-12 17:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shagrat
I'm feeling awfully slow right now, going to bed in a moment. Is the
"hero" of this poem a Nazi?
No ... He's a "normal" person like you or me, who feels smug and
self-satisfied at despising whomever the current scapegoats happen to
be ... Blacks, Jews, Pedophiles, or (this week) Muslims and people who
wear scarves. Perhaps last week he smoked pot or something ... It
doesn't matter. The point is: He found out what it was like to be
unjustly accused ... and then went back to doing the same thing once
it wasn't HIM on the grill. ;-{

Unlike the story about the guy who let all the other people be taken
away, this one completes the story and allows the persecuted person to
get back on top again ... where he acts the same bigoted way, just to
"fit in". ;-{
--
_____
/ ' / ™
,-/-, __ __. ____ /_
(_/ / (_(_/|_/ / <_/ <_
Shagrat
2004-10-12 17:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank McCoy
Post by Shagrat
I'm feeling awfully slow right now, going to bed in a moment. Is the
"hero" of this poem a Nazi?
No ... He's a "normal" person like you or me, who feels smug and
self-satisfied at despising whomever the current scapegoats happen to
be ... Blacks, Jews, Pedophiles, or (this week) Muslims and people who
wear scarves. Perhaps last week he smoked pot or something ... It
doesn't matter. The point is: He found out what it was like to be
unjustly accused ... and then went back to doing the same thing once
it wasn't HIM on the grill. ;-{
Unlike the story about the guy who let all the other people be taken
away, this one completes the story and allows the persecuted person to
get back on top again ... where he acts the same bigoted way, just to
"fit in". ;-{
I can see that now. Of course, I am awake now. Time to get ready for work.
See ya!
--
Shagrat

May the lesser gods adore you and the great ones never know you exist.
Shagrat
2004-10-12 06:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Forgot to mention about the lousy job a couple of weeks ago - my immediate
superior had been there a month, the most experienced person on the floor
(except the supervisor) had been there three months. At least one other guy
started the same night I did and refused to return.

That's why I wouldn't worry about the warehouse job.

Good luck, Frank. I hope something decent comes your way soon.
--
Shagrat

May the lesser gods adore you and the great ones never know you exist.
Frank McCoy
2004-10-12 17:37:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shagrat
Forgot to mention about the lousy job a couple of weeks ago - my immediate
superior had been there a month, the most experienced person on the floor
(except the supervisor) had been there three months. At least one other guy
started the same night I did and refused to return.
That's why I wouldn't worry about the warehouse job.
Um ... I've had *good* warehouse jobs.
Some of the people in one here had been working for decades, and were
quite happy. But (of course) that was a different company.
This company I did temp work for before.
They impressed me a LOT in only half a day.

The drawbacks appear to be relatively low pay and a long drive.
Oh yeah ... and LOTS of walking. My feet are sore. ;-}
Post by Shagrat
Good luck, Frank. I hope something decent comes your way soon.
--
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Tim Merrigan
2004-10-12 10:47:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank McCoy
Communism was *NEVER* outlawed here!
Even during the deepest days of the "Cold War", as long as I can
remember (and I'm sure they still do) Gus Hall ran for President of
the USA on the Communist ticket. I hear he died a couple of years
ago, from age-induced troubles, and wonder who they'll run on their
ticket now?
According to their web page http://www.cpusa.org/ they're not running a
candidate and not endorsing anyone elses.
--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation, from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

Tim Merrigan

URL: http://home.comcast.net/~tppm/home.htm

AIM: tppm1
Windows Messenger: ***@comcast.net
Yahoo Messenger: Tim_Merrigan_54

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Frank McCoy
2004-10-12 17:39:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Merrigan
Post by Frank McCoy
Communism was *NEVER* outlawed here!
Even during the deepest days of the "Cold War", as long as I can
remember (and I'm sure they still do) Gus Hall ran for President of
the USA on the Communist ticket. I hear he died a couple of years
ago, from age-induced troubles, and wonder who they'll run on their
ticket now?
According to their web page http://www.cpusa.org/ they're not running a
candidate and not endorsing anyone elses.
Sounds right.
Some completely right-wing nuts have been telling me to NOT vote for
Kerry, because the Communists support him.

As if that would be a reason I'd vote for or against either candidate.
--
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Shagrat
2004-10-12 17:40:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank McCoy
Communism was *NEVER* outlawed here!
I just checked on the American Communist Party website. In 1919, Woodrow
Wilson had over 10,000 suspected communists arrested. 245 were deported to
Russia. In 1948, communist party leaders were charged under the Alien
Registration Act and, after being railroaded in a Kangaroo Court (the
impression the website gives), were sentenced to five years in prison (Gus
Hall got eight years). All of this came *before* McCarthy.

No wonder I thought communism was illegal down there.
--
Shagrat

May the lesser gods adore you and the great ones never know you exist.
Tim Merrigan
2004-10-12 10:07:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank McCoy
Now WHY make each story a piece of propaganda, or at least have
something to say? Because, in ruling both for and against various
porn laws, the US Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that art or
things with social or other important messages (Can't for the life of
me remember the actual wording),
Redeeming social value?

then they're protected under the
Post by Frank McCoy
Constitution and cannot be banned. So, I also do my best to make each
a work of art as well. Maybe not what those who hate my message would
consider "art", but well-crafted and made to give a message. Being
propaganda give my stories further protection in that they fall under
that part of the First Amendment guaranteeing the right, "to petition
the Government for a redress of grievances." Propaganda and telling
YOUR side of a story, or trying to get other people to agree with you
to change what you see as unfair laws, IS trying to get the government
to "redress grievances". That my method of trying to sway people is
by telling STORIES showing the positive side of what I see as good,
has a *long* history, going back to Christ and his parables, Aesop and
his tales, and long millennia before either one was born. To not
allow me to tell my stories showing *my* side of the debate, is to
forbid one of the most effective methods of communication available in
both speech and press. Swift did it with his tales of "Gulliver's
Travels". Why should I not be allowed to do the same?
--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation, from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

Tim Merrigan

URL: http://home.comcast.net/~tppm/home.htm

AIM: tppm1
Windows Messenger: ***@comcast.net
Yahoo Messenger: Tim_Merrigan_54

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Frank McCoy
2004-10-12 18:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Merrigan
Post by Frank McCoy
Now WHY make each story a piece of propaganda, or at least have
something to say? Because, in ruling both for and against various
porn laws, the US Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that art or
things with social or other important messages (Can't for the life of
me remember the actual wording),
Redeeming social value?
THAT'S the words!
There's another reason too ... That I can't remember.
Now, with that above, maybe I can look it up on the web ....
<Time passes.> ...............

Ah ... Here we go:
"The materials are obscene if they depict patently offensive, hardcore
Sexual conduct; lack serious scientific, literary, artistic or
political value; and appeal to the prurient interest of an average
personas measured by contemporary community standards."

I try to see that, BESIDES being protected SPEECH (not pictures, which
the Supreme Court HAS said can be regulated) that to SOME extent my
stories have serious artistic values (sometimes just by being FUNNY,
but always by being well-written) sometimes scientific values (not
often; but many times passing on not well-known facts about sexuality
and in particular about fertility) and in particular *political*
values; in that they're MY way of fighting some laws that I see as
unjust ... by going to extremes and showing that things don't HAVE to
be the horror-stories that people usually hear from the supporters of
such laws.

I rest my defense on the two ideas:
1. That all *speech* is protected, though actions or even pictures
(since they're BASED on actions) might not be. Also, because my
stories ARE stories, they're protected by "Freedom of the Press" as
well; whether "printed" on a website or in paper hard-copy.
2. That while my stories are likely "patently offensive" to some, and
would almost certainly "appeal to the prurient interest" of many (most
who read them) ... the three-legged test FAILS on the third leg
because they ARE art. (I'm NOT the only person to see them as such
... and "art" is definitely in the eye of the beholder.) They have
SOME scientific value (though admittedly little). I see it that they
have SERIOUS literary value; being a better read than many stories
already approved as "literature". If nothing else, for having better
humor. And last of all (completely breaking that leg) they have truly
serious *political* value, in that I unabashedly claim (and have
evidence to show) that they are *intended* to show, as propaganda,
that some laws in this country (particularly those against incest and
age-of-consent laws) are based on pure BUNK, and should be changed at
the least. That they go to complete extremes in doing so, is true.
That they offend people, is also true. But then, when didn't
propaganda go to extremes or offend those people who opposed changing
the laws?

I really, *really*, REALLY, *REALLY* expected to be arrested for
writing (and more important POSTING) those stories on the net back in
1984. Back then, there were *NO* stories available like mine
*anywhere in the world*! I broke at least seven taboos in the first
one: "Her Father's Daughter"; and at first was tempted to post it
anonymously. I couldn't figure out how to then ... and since have
been glad that I didn't. It would have confused the issue
tremendously.
Post by Tim Merrigan
then they're protected under the
Post by Frank McCoy
Constitution and cannot be banned. So, I also do my best to make each
a work of art as well. Maybe not what those who hate my message would
consider "art", but well-crafted and made to give a message. Being
propaganda give my stories further protection in that they fall under
that part of the First Amendment guaranteeing the right, "to petition
the Government for a redress of grievances." Propaganda and telling
YOUR side of a story, or trying to get other people to agree with you
to change what you see as unfair laws, IS trying to get the government
to "redress grievances". That my method of trying to sway people is
by telling STORIES showing the positive side of what I see as good,
has a *long* history, going back to Christ and his parables, Aesop and
his tales, and long millennia before either one was born. To not
allow me to tell my stories showing *my* side of the debate, is to
forbid one of the most effective methods of communication available in
both speech and press. Swift did it with his tales of "Gulliver's
Travels". Why should I not be allowed to do the same?
SINCE then, I've been surprised. Nobody EVER even called me on the
phone and asked me about the stories. A FEW people down at where I
worked at that time asked if I was the author ... and ONE person was
enough incensed he tried to blackmail me. I received death-threats
(by email) ... so many I became a bit injured to them. But nobody,
certainly no police or LEA, ever even asked me if I was the "Frank
McCoy" who wrote such nasty stories or posted comments in some rather
controversial newsgroups. I am, and did.

In Canada, not that long thereafter, a kid was arrested and charged
with posting a rather salacious story ("The Forrestwood Kids" I
believe.) about kids having sex ... and *posting* that story to the
net. A few years later, a "suspect" was arrested and convicted of
*writing a journal* containing sexual fantasies, while cutting up
*pictures of kids from newspapers and magazines* and posing them in
seeming-sexual positions. NOT (unlike the kid with the story) of
posting them or giving them away, or letting anybody else SEE them,
but for merely writing his own fantasies down and for the way he used
purely legal pictures from magazines ... for his own use.

I *think* the charges for the second guy was thrown out. The kid, I
can't remember ... Maybe I'll look that one up ....

Nope ... Found considerable about Jake Baker, but nothing about that
particular story. ;-{
Sometimes stuff just vanishes off the net.

Well ... trying again:
Nope ... Even doing a meta-search, all I get is a pointer to one
chapter of the story itself. ;-{


Now, there are hundreds of stories like mine; and they vanish into the
clutter. My stories aren't unique any more; and often not the best.
While I still write stories for my own pleasure, I no longer feel the
need to post them instantly before Big Brother hauls me off to the
hoosegow and they never EVER see the light of day.

At one time, I really feared that would happen: That like stories
such as "Lady Chatterly's Lover", "Lolita", and "Casanova", my stories
would be hoarded and saved by a brave few ... until some day perhaps
centuries from now a single copy or so would survive to be printed
when people again decided sex wasn't evil for a few decades.

That was my attempt at immortality. ;-}
--
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Tim Merrigan
2004-10-13 16:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank McCoy
Nope ... Found considerable about Jake Baker, but nothing about that
particular story. ;-{
Sometimes stuff just vanishes off the net.
Speaking of Jake Baker, he's out and still writing (though I don't think
he uses real people as characters any more :) ), I'm in a BB Forum, and
story e-list with him. I like his stories (though you probably
wouldn't) but he definitely needs an editor.
--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation, from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

Tim Merrigan

URL: http://home.comcast.net/~tppm/home.htm

AIM: tppm1
Windows Messenger: ***@comcast.net
Yahoo Messenger: Tim_Merrigan_54

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Frank McCoy
2004-10-13 20:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Merrigan
Post by Frank McCoy
Nope ... Found considerable about Jake Baker, but nothing about that
particular story. ;-{
Sometimes stuff just vanishes off the net.
Speaking of Jake Baker, he's out and still writing (though I don't think
he uses real people as characters any more :) ), I'm in a BB Forum, and
story e-list with him. I like his stories (though you probably
wouldn't) but he definitely needs an editor.
I distinctly don't. ;-}
If anything like that first story, "needs an editor" is likely the
understatement of the year.
--
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